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If Flávio Bolsonaro becomes the next president of Brazil, the country will be subordinated to the United States: that is what Celso Amorim, the main foreign policy advisor to Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, the man who deciphers the world for the president of the ninth GDP on the planet, believes.
"You don't see Lula with the flag of any country, except the Brazilian one. And the adversary is always with the flag of the United States," says Amorim.
Amorim, 84 years old and a career diplomat, was Lula's chancellor in his first two governments, from 2003 to 2011, and Dilma Rousseff's defense minister. Together with Foreign Minister Mauro Vieira, he shapes the foreign policy of Lula, who seeks to be president for the fourth time. That worldview includes a special bond with Vladimir Putin's Russia, a regime that Amorim refuses to define as "authoritarian."
What would Lula's victory mean for the world and what would a Bolsonaro victory mean?
They are two totally different conceptions of the world. Lula is a person who represents the defense of democracy, multilateralism, independence and diversity of relations. The defense of national sovereignty. Brazil remains an important player. I'll give you just one example: in his speech to the United Nations, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom mentioned as important the fact of having a good dialogue with China, India and Brazil, in addition to Western countries. This clearly demonstrates the importance that Brazil has today. With the previous Government that did not exist. Lula represents a defense of very important values, the opposite of those of his adversary: peace, multilateralism, sovereignty and sustainable development, with interest in the environment.
Everything that has stopped being fashionable lately, right?
Perhaps it has stopped being so because human beings have diverse impulses and interests manipulate feelings in some way. And it is true, at this moment many countries, even in Europe, but especially in our region, have taken a different path. We respect what everyone decides, but we also want them to respect us. We want good relations with all countries, based on multilateral rules. That is the path to peace and development in the world.
If Bolsonaro won, what would Brazil's foreign policy be like?
The opposite of everything we did, the answer is very simple.
Some say it would be a branch of the United States, that the United States would control Brazil. Is it that big of a deal?
Brazil is a little too big to control. But if the opponent wins we would have problems. You don't have to go far. One does not see Lula with the flag of any country, except the Brazilian one. And the adversary, or at least the forces that support him, are always with the flag of the United States. Although in the United States there are many people who understand the situation and do not support a policy of intervention.
To the south of Brazil are Argentina and Milei, which has supported Bolsonaro very strongly and insults Lula. If Bolsonaro wins, what do you think can happen between Brazil and Argentina and in South America?
I prefer not to make hypothetical and catastrophic reasoning.
Is there anything that in these four years you have proposed to do with President Lula in foreign policy, that you have not achieved and that you would like to address if you remain in power?
The world is more difficult than before. Latin America is in a very complex situation, more complex than it already was, with many right-wing governments. And there are continuous wars, as the Pope says, a war that is somehow in pieces, but it is one. An almost global war, because almost all the great powers, in one way or another, are involved in direct conflicts. I am talking about the Middle East, I am naturally talking about the conflict in Ukraine, and there are others in Africa. The world has become more difficult, let's put it that way. But within that scenario we made a lot of progress. Brazil contributed to strengthening the BRICS. A certain degree of coordination has been maintained in Latin America, our foreign trade has grown and diversified.
In these years, Lula's Brazil had the ambition to mediate between Russia and Ukraine. Do you still want that?
Yes, to contribute to peace. We made a statement, we took an initiative with China as friends of peace, but that also depends on them. Peace cannot be forced, it has to be obtained through dialogue, it is necessary that both parties be at least willing and inclined to a negotiated solution. It is no mystery to say that there is a difficulty in this sense on the side of Russia, because it considers that the war is against NATO on its border and in general also on the side of Ukraine and those who support it, who are in a fight against an authoritarian country. And that is everyone's opinion.
What do you mean by that?
I say that it is a country that they consider authoritarian. I don't want to make ratings about any country.
It is said that Lula understands Putin too much, Russia, and not so much Ukraine. Do you agree with that?
No, there is no support. We support peace and peace initiatives. That's it. Negotiation with dialogue and understanding, there is no specific support.
