Santiago Abascal receives EL MUNDO in the most critical week, with 69 deaths in the Urda accident and a Government in decomposition. The leader of Vox has refused to suspend campaign events and demands that "no one uses mourning" to "silence" his party. He denounces the "disgrace" that seems to him to reduce the incident to a "human error" and "exposing a worker" and hopes that "the judges will determine the causes." He is cautious with the polls, but emphasizes that "the growth of Vox is the only thing that ensures that there is an alternative to Sánchez."
I have to start this interview where I would not have liked to, and I am sure that you would not either, which is the tragic accident in Urda. You said this phrase on the day of the accident: "Once again, anger at the abandonment, ruin and betrayal suffered by the Spanish people." What do you mean by that?
By abandonment I mean the degradation of institutions, which are being assaulted, from Parliament to the degradation of infrastructure. Spain had a railway system of which we could be proud and that has collapsed in a brutal and tragic way. And when I talk about betrayal I am referring to a Government that has not respected the national priority, which is to put general interests first. I am referring to a Government that does not renew the road structure in Spain, that does not put in place new safety mechanisms, that allows things to become obsolete.
Everything points to a chain of security errors until the entire system collapsed. It seems that, suddenly, everything is very precarious in the railway infrastructure in Spain. As if it were a miracle that there have not been more accidents. How is this possible?
It will be the technicians, and I hope the judges, who will determine the causes of many things that are happening in Spain. The Toledo accident, the Adamuz accident, the blackout... We would like to know exactly who is behind all these failures that seemed impossible. There is a lot of ideological fanaticism behind political decisions and I think there is also a lot of corruption behind problems that are arising around railway accidents.
In what sense?
Well, in the case of Adamuz I dared to say that corruption killed precisely because we knew the news that escort girls had been hired in the contracts, because there were bribes. Probability can cause a very serious accident to happen. It may happen that once there is a chain of errors, but twice in a single year? And also when there is a permanent complaint of degradation. The train drivers were asking for safety measures, they were denouncing the situation.
The Government reacted in two ways. The first was to point out a specific worker, whose audios were also leaked. And the second was the word that Minister Óscar Puente used that it had been something "inexplicable", as if there was a fatalism that condemns us to suffer this type of accidents. I would like you to value both things.
Well, fatalism seems to be Óscar Puente himself and the President of the Government. Trying to convince public opinion that it is a human error and exposing that worker seems like the worst kind of scoundrel to me. What is happening to cause technical systems to fail? What was happening that the security systems were not improved? I demand to know the whole truth.
What will Vox do to improve infrastructure if it reaches the Government?
First of all, do not lie to the Spanish. Do not tell them on November 30 that a railway accident is impossible, because the degradation exists and will not be resolved overnight. What will we do to improve infrastructure? Make the money of the Spanish people used on things that are important, essential and vital. And railway safety is. We must carry out a total review of State expenses, a complete audit, and eliminate political expenses, those for maintaining union structures, employers' expenses and the brutal expense of the imposition of agendas such as the Green Deal, the gender agendas or the 2030 Agenda. I think it is essential that tax money goes to the truly important things in Spain, which are healthcare, which has collapsed today; education, which is in the worst data we have known; safety on the streets and, of course, the improvement of infrastructure.
The Valencia damage, the blackout, the biggest fires in our history, the accidents in Urda and Adamuz, the assault on Ceuta. Do you see a pattern in all this succession of dramatic events?
Without a doubt I think there is a pattern. It is true that we can suffer an earthquake or a natural disaster, inevitable, uncontainable, but we are suffering catastrophes that some are avoidable and, of course, many of them could have been alleviated. Behind the fact that fire spreads brutally is the lack of cleanliness and a conception of nature that leads us to these situations. Behind the floods in Valencia there are political decisions not to have cleaned the ravines and not to have built infrastructure to contain the water, to store it, which also have to do with the green agenda.
And Ceuta?
I think there is also a pattern in the invasion of Ceuta, when a Government decides that it is better not to defend the border because then the catastrophe could be greater. Greater than 100 people dying at sea? Borders are the walls of our homeland and protect our prosperity, our freedom, our way of life. They protect what we love most. Behind many of the catastrophes that we are suffering and political events such as the invasion of Ceuta there are political decisions. They are not inevitable. It is not a fatalism that we have to endure.
We are four or so weeks away from the elections. Do you believe that after the accident a new electoral campaign begins?
Not for us. What has happened is something dramatic, which has all of Spain in mourning, but we are going to continue doing the same. We said that being in mourning doesn't mean stopping working. Vox is not celebrating, it is not having little dances. Vox is in an electoral campaign sending a very forceful message to the Spanish people and focuses on the fact that we have to defend ourselves from a criminal organization. Let no one use mourning to silence us. We are not going to participate in the hypocrisy of many politicians who mourn at funerals and the next day tell the people if I have seen you, I don't remember.
Do you plan to visit Urda or attend the state funeral, if there is one?
I am never in favor of politicians, except those who have government responsibilities, and if they are not annoying, we show up at the sites of disasters to hinder the work of workers. It's something I don't like to do. And regarding funerals, what I want is for relatives to be able to say goodbye in the privacy of their families. This political funeral thing is something that I don't like too much. I don't like to make a spectacle of this and I try to stay away from these situations.
You have suffered several acts of violence in the first weeks of the campaign, with protests to try to prevent your actions. How do you value these shares?
We are used to it. It's been happening to us for a long time. But there is a common pattern in all these acts of violence and it is the complicity of the Government of Spain, Marlaska and Pedro Sánchez, who allow these acts of intimidation and violence to occur, sometimes with permission, a few meters from the places where we are demonstrating or where we are holding a political meeting.
It does not seem to be a normal thing in a democratic country that a candidate cannot carry out political acts in an electoral pre-campaign.
I'm really being able to do it, because in many places the attendance at our events is absolutely massive. For example, in Zamora there were 2,000 people and in front there were 20 intolerant people trying to stop us from speaking. But they were allowed to be very close, trying to prevent the event, intimidating the people who were there and insulting those who came to listen to us. It's something deliberate.
What is this looking for?
I think two things. First of all, scare us. That surprises me that they keep trying because they should know that they are not going to make it. But secondly, that everything around Vox is noise, anger and violence. In the end, I am going to launch a political message, I am going to denounce the situation of the infrastructure, I am going to offer a different political program, and the news in all the media is not what we have said, it is the mess, it is the anger.
But are you worried that violence could in some way condition the elections? There have been major acts of violence in Barcelona and the Basque Country; There is the Sol camp, with a strong anti-system component, there is a general strike on November 11...
It worries me a lot. I think the Government is absolutely desperate. He has tried everything. Fraud, coalitions that are not working and I think also violence and intimidation. I think Sánchez has many militias. Union militias who during the strike will probably try to intimidate people who want to work. Militias in Sol that have harassed journalists and have been violent. Militias on Trampolín beach who were let in and who we later see trying to attack Vox's actions in many places in Spain.
He has accused the Government of having tried to commit fraud. Are you referring to the electoral roll and the 'grandchildren law'?
Yes. We detected this issue and we denounced it in the courts and publicly because we began to think that they were massive nationalizations aimed at registering in provinces where with a few votes the seats could swing. We have no doubt that this was the Government's intention. It is a true fraud that only had one objective and that was to alter the electoral roll in Spain. Probably that alone could not completely alter the results of the elections, but I think it was one of the elements that Sánchez had in this strategy of desperately trying to stay in power at any price.
Do you believe that CERA, the foreign census, needs to be reformed?
Well, I think that we must assess whether the grants of nationality to people who have never lived in Spain, who will probably never live in Spain, have to entail the right to vote. I think that at least deserves a debate. It seems to me that we must analyze the context of the external vote and, above all, its security and traceability. I believe that all mechanisms must be reviewed so that there is no doubt about the electoral processes.
Is Vox going to campaign in Argentina or Mexico?
Well, we have been trying for a long time, also through the people who are Vox affiliates in those places.
Your party is the only one that improves in the polls compared to 2023. Do you believe the polls?
I have always distrusted surveys. I also think that there are times when it is difficult to measure the feeling of a people, especially when very serious and permanent things happen. And there are also times when manipulated surveys are published. I'm listening to a lot of gurus telling some nonsense...
Anyone in particular?
None that is of much importance to me. In any case, the important thing is that Vox is the only one of the big parties that is growing, and that it is growing a lot. And I say this because there are those who say that Sánchez is interested in Vox growing. I find it very striking because the growth of Vox is the only thing that is currently ensuring that there is an alternative. Therefore, I don't think Sánchez has much interest in fattening Vox.
The PP is launching some initiatives that until recently were more linked to the political positions that you represent. Very recently he has proposed toughening the legislation with minors who participate in violent protests, inspired by the reform that Meloni made in Italy. Are you worried about this competition between PP and Vox?
I think it is very important that everyone knows their own electorate. I think Vox knows theirs and it is not a right-wing electorate. People who have voted right all their lives vote for us, some who have voted left and many others who abstained. Our message is not addressed to any Spaniard due to their ideological profile. It is true that it is a very forceful message that we define as common sense, which is based on national priority, deregulation, drastic tax cuts and remigration. The PP does not agree with any of these Vox positions. He also rejects our concept of national priority, which he has ended up accepting in some regions, but because the electoral results have led him to do so. And to me, frankly, it seems good to me that the electorate that also does not share those things about Vox has an option in the PP.
Immigration is one of its main proposals. I understand that you have two lines here, one referring to people who already live in Spain, which is the concept you have used of remigration, and the other regarding those who want to come to Spain. What does each one consist of?
When we talk about remigration we are referring to people who are living off the social aid that Spaniards need. When you emigrate to a country and have a work permit, when that permit ends, it is normal for you to leave the country if you do not find another job. It is not normal for them to live on social assistance. It is true that you have to be very precise and you have to distinguish. A person who has come here to receive social assistance, which there is, is not the same as the people who have come to Spain to work, have contributed, have respected our laws, our way of life, have adapted, live among us, are good people and suddenly have a problem and lose their job. Through their work they have also acquired rights that must be respected. This cannot be done with a broad stroke, it has to be something absolutely measured, planned and it is not like someone tries to say, "look, Vox wants to put people on a highway here and cause an exodus."
But are we talking about self-deportations, as is being done in the United States?
We are talking about remigration. That is, you have to return because your permit has ended or because you cannot live off of aid from the Spanish.
