We are in stoppage time for this legislature, there are very few weeks left until the general elections. What social policies have you missed or do you think should have been promoted in recent years?
I believe that there has been a great boost in social policies, it has really been a guiding axis in all of Pedro Sánchez's governments. We have made an important effort to consolidate pensions, improve labor rights, invest in scholarships and FP... It has been a very important policy that has transformed the country, but we have to continue consolidating to prevent someone from coming with a chainsaw to cut corners on these issues that affect the daily lives of citizens. There is always work to do, no policy is usually perfect, but the service charter of progressive governments has given the country an important boost, especially from an economic point of view. The country is doing so well because we have taken very good measures in these matters.
Immigration is and will undoubtedly be one of the main issues in the campaign and surely in the coming legislature. It usually occupies second place as the country's main problem, according to CIS surveys. Do you think immigration is becoming a problem of coexistence?
I think there was a change in those polls when the PP decided to buy Vox's speech. It is true that when different people have to be integrated into very small areas, there can be difficulties. But it is not solved with hatred, but by investing. There are two models. One that tries to mask the social cuts by pointing to a culprit and saying that the immigrant is taking that help away from you. And another who is in favor of coexistence, who understands that sufficient public services must be developed so that no one has to compete. Spain is showing that if you regularize, if you allow people who want to come to develop a project to come and welcome them, your country grows and improves. Not only does the life of the immigrant improve, but also the life of all Spaniards, because we have a stronger economy, more people contributing, and that is good. That is the difference and that is why there is so much attack on this matter.
It is undeniable that there was a problem of coexistence in Ceuta after the massive entry on July 30. How would you rate the Government's management in this crisis?
The issue of Ceuta has been and is a very complicated crisis with many aspects. More than a problem of coexistence, it is a problem of human rights. Now there is also an attempt to convey the idea that women cannot walk the streets of Ceuta and that is a lie. We had a massive influx, most leaving within the next 24 hours. During this time many more people have left and right now it is about using international law to respond to people who, let us not forget, come to Spain looking for a better future. They don't come to attack us, they come because they see on the other side of the border what it's like to live in a country with an adequate economy, with a good public system, and they also want that for their lives, right? The crisis in Ceuta is already being resolved, the State has provided a huge amount of money to resolve it, there is aid that has been arriving for some time and well, little by little, normality in Ceuta will be recovered without a doubt.
You mentioned international law. What should be Spain's immigration policy in the next legislature in a context in which Europe is tightening its measures? Is there a balance between human rights and border control?
The thing is that human rights must never be balanced, they must be the backbone of any other type of policy. There are no first or second-class human rights, there is not a 'bit' of human rights. Either we apply them or there are none. Border policy is complex, of course, we are Europe's external border and we have one of the most unequal borders, but we must always treat it from the point of view of legality, doing things the right way, because once we were on the other side of those borders. And the evidence shows that countries that claim to have a much more aggressive policy towards immigration have worse results than Spain. Italy has more illegal immigration than Spain, it has worse figures in these matters. I believe that the immigration policy of the Government of Spain shows that it gives very good results, much more than that of those who use big populist phrases and who try to use hatred or inequality, which do not give them the results they say they have. The other way around.
Let's move on to the health block. What do you think is the biggest problem facing our healthcare system right now? In recent years we have seen a growing discontent among doctors and then also among citizens, who point out above all the waiting lists.
Health responsibilities are decentralized. And there is a huge difference between those autonomous communities that understand that healthcare is a right, that it must be universal, free and public, and those, governed mostly by the PP and linked to Vox, that understand that healthcare is a business and that, by deteriorating the public system, they get more and more people to go to the private system in which companies make a lot of money. Of course we agree with the citizens who see that it is deteriorating, but we believe that this deterioration is premeditated. There are parties that want it to be a business, exactly the same as they are doing with pensions, which they cannot cut because it depends on the Government. With healthcare we do not have the same luck. Being in the hands of the communities, the scheme is simple. You deteriorate the public system and say: 'Oh, how bad the public system is, I'm going to turn to private companies to help me.' It's not chance, it's a program. Citizens who want a public system have to bet on parties like the PSOE, who want good public services with good investment.
Would you say that our welfare state is in crisis?
No. I wouldn't say that our welfare state is in crisis; What I would say is that we are now facing elections in which two models are proposed: one, solid, strong, protective, with good public services; and another model in which the aim is to reduce the State, reduce investment and privatize. So, it is not that we are in a crisis, it is that we are in a moment of decision. What kind of public system do you want? What protection do you want to have?
In the educational field, why has a State pact that the educational community has been demanding for many years has not yet been achieved?
Because just as two do not quarrel if they do not want to, two do not agree if they do not want to. We have had a legislature in which the right, especially exemplified in the PP, has dedicated itself to torpedoing by land, sea and air any possibility of agreement on any matter. We have seen it in Congress, laws that were practically agreed upon, at the time of reaching the Plenary, they have voted against almost everything, well, everything, I would say. He has only voted in favor or abstained when he knew that it was going to come out yes or yes. There is a shared responsibility there. Nobody can say that we are not capable of dialogue. We have dialogued to achieve coalition governments, to advance laws with very, very complex parliamentary arithmetic. What I would say to the Spanish right is to stop this aggressiveness against those in front of us and to start thinking more about their country. Then agreements can be reached. As long as they are only thinking about how to win the elections by dehumanizing and destroying the opponent, it will be very difficult to reach agreements.
Where it does not seem that a consensus has yet been reached is in the way of addressing the growing diversity of classrooms that is putting more work on teachers who have expressed their discontent in several strikes. What answer do you offer?
Here again, the management of education is in the hands of the communities. And there are some who want to destroy the public model. This is so. We have proposed lowering the ratios, free education from zero to three years... More money has been transferred than ever, something else is what they have done with that money. Many have decided to use it to remove inheritance taxes, for example. If you give 200 million for education and withdraw a tax that raised 200 million, what you do is divert the funding that exists for those public services to give gifts to those who you believe are your voters. So, in educational matters, once again the recipe is the same. Do you want a solid and quality public service? Do you want to have your professionals well paid? Do you want students to be cared for in their diversities? The only answer is greater investment, a stronger State, an educational community supported by the Government. And not those who want to cut and privatize.
And what do we do with our students' failure in the PISA report?
The truth is that it is a descent that cannot be taken in isolation. Something is happening in all countries, and we believe that it also has to do with how our young people are being socialized and how technologies are affecting them. It is not an issue with a single cause. And that also requires thinking about how we are allowing private technological entities or companies that only want to use our young people for profit to direct the development of our youth, instead of protecting them and taking care of their mental health. Again, the best response is always greater investment and the protection of our young people. And that is why the lines of work that the Socialist Party has proposed, for example, with this law [on minors in the digital environment] that we would like to be able to carry out and have a sufficient majority to protect our young people from the platforms.
Finally, representative. What would the left have to do to win back voters who believe that progressive policies have stopped talking about those everyday problems and specifically those that we have talked about today that concern health, education and migration? Especially taking into account that we have just exposed problems that persist in society after two terms with the PSOE at the helm...
Well, look, I believe that these elections are crucial for Spain, because we are between consolidating a country project that is based on equality or letting ourselves be carried away by a reactionary wave of chainsaws, of cuts. It is important for the country, but also for Europe and probably for the entire planet, because Spain is a reference in social policies and public policies. Citizens understand the situation and are aware that of course a Government is never perfect, there are many things to improve. We still have a lot of work to do to get to what we want to achieve, but we will only be able to achieve that with a stronger progressive government. We need a stronger majority that will allow us to pass laws that have not been possible in this legislature. They are very, very important elections. Historical, transcendental. And we are seeing in other countries that the mobilization of people on the left is turning around the polls and confronting the large investments of billionaires who want to influence the elections. I would remind everyone that their vote counts, and my vote counts the same as that of a person who has a billion and who invests in advertising for a right-wing candidate. That is the strength of democracy.
