Harvard professor Alison Wood Brooks studies what makes good conversations. In the interview she explains why just 30 seconds of preparation improves a conversation and why you should ask “what” more often.
Frankfurt. The conversation with Alison Wood Brooks lasts ten minutes - and the interview hasn't even started yet. In the video call between Boston and Frankfurt am Main, the Harvard professor first asks the questions himself. Brooks, one of the world's leading conversation researchers, knows how to engage people in conversations.
Ms. Brooks, why is it so difficult to have a good conversation?
Conversations are difficult coordination games: we have to simultaneously listen, formulate answers, recognize our own feelings and intentions as well as those of the other person, and decide when to change the subject. Meanwhile, the situation is constantly changing. Even the best conversationalists experience misunderstandings and embarrassing moments. Our everyday conversations therefore rarely sound like well-considered film dialogues.
We practice this throughout our lives. Why don't we automatically get better at it?
Unlike in sports, we rarely get concrete feedback. We often don't know why a conversation succeeded or failed. And we never learn how it could have turned out differently: What would have happened if I had made this joke or asked that question? Afterwards we ponder our statements - without knowing how they were received. The other person may have long forgotten what is still bothering us.
Many people think of themselves: Either you are a good conversation partner – or you are not.
This is a big mistake! You can learn to have good conversations. What matters is how we behave in conversation – and that can be practiced.
For this purpose you developed “TALK”, which is also the title of your bestseller, which has now also been published in Germany under the title “Small Talk, Deep Talk”. What is behind the approach?
“TALK” stands for four basic principles of successful conversations: topics, questions (asking), lightness (levity) and friendliness (kindness). We should choose good topics and recognize when it's time for a new one. We should ask more questions - most people ask far too few. We should keep conversations light and stimulating so that they don't become dry. And we should always concentrate on our counterpart: on what the other person thinks, feels and needs.
Sounds sophisticated if these principles are intended to help both when negotiating and when having dinner with friends.
It was precisely this range that was the biggest challenge: someone negotiates a peace agreement during the day, plays with their baby in the evening and flies to a bachelor party at the weekend. In each of these situations we speak to each other differently. But we always have to choose topics, ask questions, find the right balance between seriousness and lightness and pay attention to our counterparts.
They recommend preparing topics even for private conversations. This makes sense to me before an interview. Before a meeting with friends, that sounds artificial.
Many people think: why should I prepare an agenda when I call my mother? We think conversations should flow spontaneously and effortlessly as evidence that we have a good relationship. It always takes effort to be attentive and to deal with the other person's point of view. Our experiments show that even with people we know well, it helps to think briefly beforehand.
Just half a minute of preparation helped in your examinations. What changes as a result?
We are less likely to forget what we wanted to talk about, switch between topics more easily, and are more likely to end up with something that interests both of us. In these 30 seconds, write down five possible topics. This makes us feel more confident and less likely to stall in conversation.
Let's take a professional networking meeting where I don't know anyone: How do I find suitable topics?
Think in advance about who will be there: What are these people working on? What is bothering them? What do they need help with? Even if you don't know anyone, at an IT industry event you have a general idea of what tasks the participants are dealing with. You can prepare suitable topics for this.
They also recommend changing topics more frequently. I always thought it made conversations more superficial.
We don’t have to choose between breadth and depth – good conversation partners achieve both. You switch quickly between topics, almost like a search: Can we find something that excites us both? If so, ask more questions.
However, most people ask far too little, you write. As a journalist, I can't even imagine that.
You are immune to this because of your job. But most people not only ask far too little - they also overestimate how often they do it.
What makes questions so effective?
Follow-up questions in particular show that you are listening and interested in the other person. They quickly lead us out of small talk and make conversations meaningful. But you should not only ask a lot, but also in the right way.
What do you mean?
Open questions with W-words lead to significantly longer answers than closed yes-no questions. You should only be careful with “why” questions.
Why?
“Why” questions provide a lot of information, but quickly seem like an accusation: “Why were you late?” “How” questions are easier to answer, but provide less information. I recommend asking “what” questions: “What have you been excited about lately?” Or: “What do you think about my book?” I want to live a life full of “what” questions.
And at some point my counterpart has had enough of the questions.
Whether dating, with friends or with work colleagues: As long as our goals are aligned, we never found a point in our studies where there were too many questions. Things become more difficult when goals or beliefs collide. Then aggressive “why” questions or repeated questions can seem like an attack. You fear that your answers will reveal something that will be used against you. But even in tough negotiations, people who ask a lot do better than those who ask almost nothing.
In the book you warn against so-called “boomerang” questions: I ask you about your vacation, but then don't respond to your answer and immediately tell you about my last trip.
Anyone who asks should be genuinely interested, listen and respond to the answer. If the question only serves as a pretext for self-promotion, our interest appears inauthentic. A faux pas that annoys others. Then we should tell our own story straight away.
What if people don’t ask questions at all?
Sometimes it almost becomes a game: I step out of the situation internally and observe whether this person even asks a question. If that doesn’t happen, so be it – we can’t control other people’s behavior. But we can give feedback and say that we would like more interest and more questions. We can also consider how much contact we want to have with this person - if we have the choice.
Many people dread small talk at conferences and business meetings. Why is this so stressful for us?
Many people fear the awkward silence: What do I say when I can't think of anything? At the same time, they don't dare to go deeper with a request. Personal questions are often less sensitive than we think. But because we don't ask them out of fear, we don't experience how well the conversation could go.
So can small talk be fun?
First of all, small talk is an important social ritual. You can't ask the first person at a networking meeting: "What was the most traumatic experience of your life?" The mistake is getting stuck in small talk for too long. A short exchange is often enough: You are in Germany, I am in Boston. Then we can move on to something more personal and exciting.
In the book you describe a pyramid of topics: We start with easily accessible topics such as weather, food or weekend plans. We then find out what particularly interests us both through personal interests and experiences.
I like to ask, “What were the highlights of your week or day?” This is more specific than the general question about how you feel. Or: “What are you excited about right now?” Even at work, there is usually something that people like to talk about.
At a business meeting, this might still be a bit too intentional.
That depends on your style. I speak with a lot of enthusiasm and energy. That doesn't suit everyone. Come up with questions for moments when you can't think of anything. Maybe this is more appropriate for you: “What’s on your mind right now?” The question should offer something concrete that the other person can build on.
The principle of friendliness from your “TALK” approach fits in with this. Taking each other's needs seriously sounds obvious. Why is this so difficult for us?
Because we are so busy with ourselves. We know our own thoughts and experiences best. We quickly think that what interests us is also interesting for others. We should find out what our counterpart actually needs. This can be encouragement, but also honest feedback or critical inquiry. Being kind doesn't mean always agreeing. Ask the other person what they need instead of assuming you already know.
The approach also includes lightness. Now, not everyone is particularly funny.
Nobody has to be. It's not about constantly producing punch lines. Lightness includes warmth, playfulness, surprise and shared pleasure. Your biggest opponent is boredom: those who mentally disengage participate less, ask less and take in less. Good conversation partners ask themselves: How can we have a good time together?
How do I achieve this lightness?
Ask playful questions, allow yourself to digress or remind you of shared experiences. Self-irony also helps. Or pick up on each other's humor. Change the subject if the other person is bored. Show gratitude and give specific compliments. We are all insecure and need reassurance more than we think. And laugh! In one study, we asked participants after the conversation who they found funny and who they had fun with. Often they didn't name the joke tellers, but rather those who laughed the most. Laughter is contagious.
If I laugh all the time for no reason, it also seems strange.
It's about enjoying other people and the absurdity of life. You don't have to be a comedian to do this.
Especially at work, many people fear that humor will appear dubious. When does it become inappropriate?
Humor is a kind of harmless violation of rules. If something is too harmless, it's not funny. If the violation goes too far, it quickly becomes hurtful. Finding the right tone is difficult – especially for employees with little power or low status.
How come?
People with low status are given less in the job. Aggressive jokes are more likely to be seen as unprofessional, and silly jokes are seen as immature. Even those who give a lot of compliments can come across as incompetent. This limits them: they can't just be themselves without risking negative reactions.
How can managers support these employees?
You should give them space. On average, managers talk too much. Taking a step back requires a lot of self-control, but it is important so that everyone in the team can contribute something. It is important to signal to employees: you are safe here. You are important to me. We can all joke.
Sounds like the concept of psychological safety coined by your Harvard colleague Amy Edmondson. The goal is a culture in which employees can openly express criticism, disagree, admit mistakes and ask for help. How do leaders create this atmosphere?
Managers should see themselves as hosts and enable everyone to contribute their knowledge - without fear of devaluation or personal attacks. For example, delegate the moderation of the meeting to someone else. The boss determines in advance which topics and decisions are pending. Another keeps an eye on the time and ensures that the group stays on topic. Then the boss can listen and intervene in a targeted manner.
