Interview: Top headhunter Heiner Thorborg: “80 percent of the upper floors consist of narcissists”

Dusseldorf. He has been one of the most influential headhunters in German business for four decades: Heiner Thorborg. He brought board members and supervisory boards into DAX companies, traditional family businesses and other elite committees.

Thorborg has now written a book about his work that has climbed straight into the bestseller list for business books. In it, the 81-year-old analyzes real cases, sharply criticizes his own status and provides insights into the “secret rules” of those in power.

In an interview with Handelsblatt, he summed up: “80 percent of the upper floors consist of narcissists.” But, says the headhunter, “things used to be even worse.”

Mr. Thorborg, why is the German economy not going well at the moment?

There are of course plenty of reasons for this. There are high energy prices and excessive bureaucracy, a lack of innovation, and a crisis in the automobile industry, our most important sector of the economy. Plus Trump with his misleading customs policy, Putin, the AfD and the fear of war.

And then there are bad managers?

One might think that the quality of executive boards and supervisory boards no longer makes the cabbage fat. But far from it! Too many companies are simply put at risk by poor decision-makers. In many places we have narcissists at the top who consider their own ego to be more important than the fate of the company.

For example…

Bayer and Monsanto: Before taking over the US seed manufacturer Monsanto, Bayer was the most valuable German company. Now you can only keep your fingers crossed for the company that the new CEO will pull it out of the ditch and get it back on track. Common sense was apparently switched off.

How could this happen?

The takeover was simply overconfidence on the part of the then incumbent CEO, Werner Baumann, who also enjoyed the full backing of his supervisory board chairman, Werner Wenning. The case looks like a prime example of “I know what I’m doing.”

Isn't the Bayer case a blatant exception?

In its dimension and clarity it is. But there was a similar case in the past, the merger of Daimler and Chrysler. It was also a disaster and we could have learned from it. Basically, I would say that almost 80 percent of the upper echelons are made up of narcissists. Many consider themselves to be God himself and view contradiction as sacrilege.

Are there more narcissists today than there used to be?

Just as many as before. Because those who choose are also narcissists. By the way, you can find narcissists all over the world. This is not a German phenomenon.

Can this be broken? What would be the leverage?

The problem starts at the top – on the supervisory board. The chairman of the board is the one who has the key. And there are many chairmen of supervisory boards in the German economy who are very confident in themselves. They basically say: I don't need any help, I don't need a reference, I'll make the selection myself.

Over the past four decades, as headhunters, you yourself have helped one or another CEO or supervisory board to gain power. Is this analysis, which you also wrote down in your book “Behind the Scenes of the Powerful,” your reckoning with the industry or – to stay with the metaphor – your confession of life?

Neither one nor the other. My book is partly an autobiography. In addition, it offers a critical look at the HR consulting business, especially candidates and clients.

Many in your industry avoid public criticism for fear of losing customers. You are one of the few who speak your mind. Why are you doing this?

That is my self-image. It is part of my duties as a consultant. I am not a supplier, I act on an equal level with my clients and candidates.

And your competitors, the headhunters from the big HR consultancies like Egon Zehnder or Russell Reynolds, don't do that?

No, they often find themselves in conflicts of interest because they want and have to work for everyone so that their companies grow. However, this also reduces their search universe because they are not allowed to poach on their clients.

Why then do the large personnel consultancies receive so many orders?

Because many clients do not want to bear the responsibility for selecting candidates. They delegate this to the big names, this is the fig leaf function.

How exactly does your business work? What are still gray areas, when does it become dubious?

It's a balancing act. Of course, every HR consultant is interested in follow-up orders and therefore tries to stay in business with the client beyond a placement. But this must not lead to mutual dependencies.

How do these dependencies arise?

For example, the placed candidate is promised further supervisory and advisory board mandates by the headhunter and this candidate then continues to employ the headhunter in return.

What or rather who was your last cast?

I cannot and do not want to talk about current mandates.

Is there an ideal CEO?

The key personality traits you need to run a company are: empathy, authenticity, integrity, creativity, judgment, ability to work in a team and being a role model. It takes all of these qualities plus experience. The more of each property, the better.

Is empathy the most important thing for you?

Absolutely. Empathy is the prerequisite for good social relationships. It helps to avoid or resolve conflicts. And it ensures team cohesion. Yes, it is even seen as what holds entire societies together.

Can even distant and very objective people make good bosses?

Yes, empathy is not the same as warm-heartedness. Admittedly, a distant boss has to go above and beyond when it comes to appreciation. But even a tough turnaround manager can and should still be empathetic. If a company is on the verge of collapse, merciless action must be taken. This succeeds with respect and empathy and fails with callousness.

What about intelligence, shown in A-levels, masters with honors, doctorates summa cum laude...?

Nice to have, but no guarantee of entrepreneurial success.

How do you find such an ideal boss?

I don't base myself on common psychological tests or check off catalogs of criteria in a yes-no-something pattern. Instead, I rely on my gut feeling. It's well trained because I've been doing this for a long time and assessing people is my core competency.

Now that sounds a little unprofessional – or maybe you’re exaggerating yourself…

At the end of the day, that's how it is. Anyone who makes decisions and is honest with themselves knows this. No matter how much you research, know, test, there remains some residual uncertainty and you have to bear it yourself and take responsibility for it with your personality.

What about assessments? Such instruments are now mandatory in many companies in order to make selection processes more objective.

One does not exclude the other. It is often part of the hiring practice to also carry out an assessment. The result of the assessment and my assessment usually agree. I also follow my candidates' careers over the long term, so I see whether and how they prove themselves.

An example please.

I once discovered Christoph Franz. He was an executive assistant at Lufthansa. I took him to the then railway boss Heinz Dürr. He later became a board member there. Ultimately, he left there unhappily and abruptly. He moved back to Lufthansa and made a name for himself there at the Swiss subsidiary. Eventually he became Lufthansa boss. He then became chairman of the board of directors at Roche, and now he is chairman of the supervisory board of the railway company. Christoph Franz would probably have had a career without me, I just helped decisively at the beginning of his career and played fate.

What is fundamentally going wrong in your industry?

A lot. Headhunting is not a protected profession. There are no qualification barriers. Starting tomorrow, everyone can call themselves a human resources consultant. Accordingly, there are guys running around in the industry who you wouldn't buy a used car from.

Why not?

There are headhunters who work in a transaction-oriented, non-sustainable way.

What else?

As a good headhunter, I collect references about candidates at the end of the recruitment process. For me, references are my life insurance. But there are enough competitors who don't check references at all. That's work, it often takes weeks. They only have their short-term conclusion in mind. This is negligent and dubious.

Were there any candidates you wanted to deceive?

Yes, again and again. One candidate had listed a PhD on his CV. The name of the alma mater gave me pause. A search revealed that this university does not even exist. That was the end of him as a candidate for me.

What advice do you give your candidates that you are convinced of?

One secret of power is that many bosses don't look for top-notch people. These could ultimately become dangerous for them. This doesn't mean that you should act like a complete idiot when talking to clients. But waving your IQ around in front of them isn't a good idea either.

What can I do as a candidate in such a situation? Looking for common ground, trying to slime?

If you as a candidate get the feeling that you don't really fit in or are wanted, I would advise you to end the conversation and not take office.

Another secret?

Companies are run politically. If you want to move up, you have to take part in internal power and competition struggles. Only those who have allies on the committees will prevail. This is no different below. Therefore, most prospective CEOs are already well practiced in this discipline.

What do you think about “Germany as a location?” Do we have a leadership problem?

Things used to be much worse. Purely male, many roped parties. And you used to have a lot of bankers on the supervisory boards. They pushed candidates to each other. This has gotten better.

So progress?

Yes. And today you also have really good people in terms of leadership quality that I rarely saw in the past. Something happened there. But there is still room for improvement.

What is better than before in terms of leadership quality?

Hierarchical governance from top to bottom is on the decline.

What do you think Germany is missing?

Self-confidence and confidence. Where is that supposed to come from? I only see mutual dislike between politics and business. If this continues, you have to worry. And yet: Germany is one of the largest economic powers, we have resources, we have engineering skills. You just have to make it better again. I miss that jolt.

Would more women in leadership improve the situation?

Women themselves are not better managers. But more women in power would change things for the better.

They often let candidates declare defeat. What was your own biggest failure?

I was 35, had gained management experience in South Africa and wanted to get started with a great new job in Germany. However, I was stupid enough to brag about the great conditions before I even started. This was reported to my new boss, a family business owner - and boom, the job was gone again. I had messed it up by being stupidly talkative. It was terrible at that moment. But in retrospect, that was great. It taught me humility and I became a headhunter.

Mr. Thorborg, thank you very much for the interview.