A few days ago, the Federal Government's Eastern Commissioner, Elisabeth Kaiser (SPD), called for more East Germans in leadership positions. The higher the management level, the lower the East German share there is, she said when presenting her current annual report. In an interview with tagesschau24, sociologist Michael Hartmann explains why this is and what effects the unequal distribution has.
tagesschau24: Mr. Hartmann, how do you define top positions?
Michael Hartmann: Normally you use the term elite and these are people who can significantly influence social developments through their decisions. If you use a broad definition of elite, that's around 4,000 people at most. In the study to which the East Commissioner refers, there are a good 3,000 people.
tagesschau24: How are these elites distributed? More in East Germany or more in West Germany?
Hartmann: They are largely in West Germany. This study shows that the proportion of East Germans in all elites is twelve percent. It has to be said that the differences between the sectors are very large.
If I only take the large companies, there are almost no people who grew up in East Germany: there is a single person among more than 250 DAX boards. And none at all among the CEOs and supervisory boards of the 100 largest companies. In the judiciary, there are half a dozen federal judges who grew up in the East. This is minimal.
The sector in which East Germans are represented, i.e. around 20 percent, is politics. If politics and public administration, which is linked to politics, were not counted, the proportion of East Germans in these top positions would be less than ten percent.
“All elite positions newly filled by West Germans”
tagesschau24: Why is that? We now have 36 years of reunification behind us.
Hartmann: After the fall of the Berlin Wall, all elite positions were filled by West Germans. These West Germans brought their employees with them and also an understanding of what someone suitable for such a position should be like. These West German glasses have evolved over decades.
In West Germany, too, this means that people who grew up in the top four percent of the population have much greater opportunities. Almost nothing has changed in the economy for over 100 years. Over 80 percent of top positions are filled by people who grew up in these four percent.
These glasses ensure that those who move into such positions 20 or 30 years later are still judged through West German glasses. East Germans have no realistic chance, especially in sectors such as justice and business.
“Jurisprudence shaped by West German experiences”
tagesschau24: When these West German glasses look at the East, what effects does that have?
Hartmann: From an economic point of view, it is very clear. All major decisions are made in the West. This means that the decisions about economic development - especially at large companies - have nothing to do with the decision-makers in East Germany itself. They have to comply. When a decision is made at VW: 'We will close the plant in Zwickau.' They decide that in Wolfsburg - and then they have to implement it in Zwickau.
This is not quite as blatant in other areas, but if you look at the federal courts: you can also say that the jurisprudence is shaped by West German experiences. This also has an impact on how case law is perceived.
If West Germans dominate the jurisprudence and economic decisions, many East Germans feel dominated by these West Germans. This then results in something like a defensive attitude. It is no coincidence that the AfD is so much stronger in East Germany than in the West, even though it is also gaining ground in the West. Because this feeling of being controlled by others also leads to social problems in East Germany.
“There are hardly any positive developments”
tagesschau24: To what extent can we see progress that Germany has made in recent years?
Hartmann: There are hardly any positive developments at this level. There is a slight tendency that East Germans have better chances. An East German now sits among 16 judges in the Federal Constitutional Court. But these are minimal improvements for such a long period of time.
In the beginning the argument was always: It simply doesn't work because people had a different legal system, they were trained differently, including in business. That was 35 years ago now. This means that the people who would now be considered for such positions have all already studied under the conditions of a unified Germany and some have even gone to school there. This means that this argument is now completely invalid and yet almost nothing is happening.
Except in politics. This has to do with the fact that you can't always present voters with West Germans over a long period of time. But I once examined this for Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania: In the cabinet that served until the election, every second ministerial position was still occupied by someone who grew up in West Germany - and that 35 years after the fall of the Wall.
“No significant changes without quotation”
tagesschau24: How can more East Germans get into leadership positions? Would quotas help, similar to the quota for women in companies?
Hartmann: I believe that in such questions, when it comes to real top positions, no significant changes will be achieved without a quota, especially in areas such as the economy, justice and even the media. If you look at the media landscape in the East, there are still a lot of West Germans out there. The entire print media is essentially an appendage of West German newspaper groups or media companies.
You can't change something like this on the basis of a voluntary agreement or with the hope that it will grow out at some point. That was the argument for a long time: At some point a new generation will come along and then things will be different. A new generation has come and hardly anything has changed.
Romy Hiller conducted the interview for tagesschau24. The interview was shortened and edited for the written version.
