Timetables, tariff zones and various transport apps could soon become less important for passengers. The Hamburger Verkehrsverbund (HVV), which coordinates local public transport in Hamburg and the surrounding metropolitan region, relies on artificial intelligence that organizes trips, procures tickets and finds alternatives in the event of disruptions. HVV boss Anna-Theresa Korbutt explains why AI will change local transport more than autonomous vehicles and why Germany needs to rethink its transport associations.
WORLD: Ms. Korbutt, you deal with mobility every day. What are you personally most looking forward to when you think about the public transport of the future?
Anna-Theresa Korbutt: What concerns me most at the moment is the question of how we can bring artificial intelligence into local public transport. For me it's less about optimizing internal processes, although of course we do that too. I prefer to move at the interface with the passenger. Interestingly, when politicians, transport companies and associations talk about the mobility of tomorrow, the passenger is usually not at the table. I would like to incorporate his perspective more.
WORLD: What can artificial intelligence do at this point?
Korbutt: It can make communication with passengers more transparent, direct and easier. Younger people in particular grow up with technology completely differently. They talk to their smartphones and expect digital systems to help them immediately. I now also talk to my AI assistant. He introduced himself to me as “Soul” and supports me in many tasks. Why shouldn't it work similarly with mobility?
WORLD: Your answer to that is Mia. What exactly is behind that?
Korbutt: Mia stands for “Mobile Intelligent Assistance”. The system is completely designed for mobility. You can imagine Mia as a kind of Siri or Alexa of public transport. If I want to go somewhere, I will no longer have to open a train app, then buy a ticket from another provider and then use Google to find the next connection at my destination. I'll just tell Mia what I'm up to. She tells me when I have to leave, finds the connection, gets the right ticket and accompanies me to my destination in real time.
WORLD: So you want to make timetables and tariff zones as invisible as possible?
Korbutt: Exactly. The passenger was basically never interested in timetable data. He wants to know when he has to leave and how he can reliably get to his destination. Today we still have many breaks along a journey: one application for the train, another for local transport, perhaps another for a taxi or an on-demand service. I also don't want to have to enter addresses and stops anymore. Actually, all I have to say is: "I have a conversation with Mr. Lauterbach today. When do I have to leave?" The system knows the entry in the calendar and organizes the rest.
WORLD: How far along is Mia already?
Korbutt: We have a first functional version. The system can currently be operated via a larger stele, for example. You speak to Mia and get an answer in your own language. Currently around 50 languages are possible, with 146 languages planned in the future, including sign language. Mia creates the travel information, shows the route, deposits the ticket and accompanies the passenger. If the planned connection doesn't work, she can arrange a taxi or on-demand service.
WORLD: Will we always have to stand in front of such a stele in the future?
Korbutt: No. We started with the stele because the technology can be easily demonstrated and tested there. At the same time, we are working on a mobile version. The key question will be what do people prefer: do they talk on their cell phone or use a larger screen at a train station, travel center, downtown or airport? That's why we want to try out different forms.
WORLD: What happens if Mia doesn't understand a question?
Korbutt: Nothing is worse than talking to a digital system that doesn't understand you and then keeps you in an endless loop. Therefore, in case of doubt, a person should be able to take over. An employee could then be involved as a second level in the travel centers. We first want to test the technology in direct contact with passengers and see how it is received.
WORLD: When should that happen?
Korbutt: We want to present Mia 3.0 at the UITP World Congress in Hamburg next summer. This will include, among other things, technical improvements, ticket purchasing and mobile use. We then want to start practical testing with passengers.
WORLD: However, a trip often does not end in the HVV area. How do you want to bring the many German transport associations together?
Korbutt: Technically, Mia can access various traffic agents and information modules. If, for example, Leipzig or Frankfurt develop their own interfaces and we connect these systems with each other, a kind of synapse network is created. Then Mia could also organize a trip to Leipzig. We are in discussions with partners and want to show at the UITP congress what such cooperation can look like.
WORLD: Are the other associations ready for this?
Korbutt: If you ask everyone, everyone will initially say yes. What is crucial, however, is whether these commitments actually result in technical approaches and joint projects. In Germany there is no overarching framework that forces everyone involved to work together. Everyone can initially develop their own solution. However, the growing financial pressure on the industry could lead to greater cooperation. When there is less money, not everyone can afford their own system.
WORLD: Older or less tech-savvy people in particular could feel overwhelmed by this. Will there still be ticket machines and other classic routes?
Korbutt: Of course. There is no black and white world, not even in public transport. Mia does not mean that we will switch off all other sales channels on the day of its launch. If you don't want to talk to a digital assistant, you don't have to. But we have to consider which sales, communication and service channels we still need in the long term. We work almost exclusively with public funds. Therefore, we cannot permanently provide our own technical solution for each individual target group.
WORLD: Does that mean cash and paper will gradually disappear anyway?
Korbutt: We have to move away from the attitude that cash and paper always have to be the benchmark so that everyone can manage their lives. Other countries have long shown how easy it can be: you get in, hold your card up to a reader and drive off. However, you need a simple tariff for this. We are often accused that public transport is not efficient enough. As soon as we want to become more efficient, however, we quickly say that this is not social enough. We have to resolve this contradiction.
WORLD: The Hamburg tariff system with its rings and zones was long considered difficult to understand. What should change?
Korbutt: We will remove a lot of complexity from the tariff system in the coming year. For political reasons, this happened later than we originally wanted. The crucial obstacles have now been overcome. Together with Schleswig-Holstein NAH.SH we want to significantly reduce the number of tariff products.
WORLD: How strong?
Korbutt: Today there are still more than 80 different products in the so-called cash tariff. We want to bring this diversity to a level that is comparable to the now very manageable number of our season tickets. As part of the Deutschlandticket, we have reduced the number of season tickets from more than 100 to three. The cash tariff must follow this example. I can't yet say what the final structure will look like in detail because the political decision is pending. But our goal is one of the simplest tariff systems in Germany.
WORLD: Why is this important for Mia too?
Korbutt: Because comprehensibility is the prerequisite for any easy sales. Today we have to program a large number of different tickets into machines, apps and information systems. This costs a lot of money and is difficult for many people to understand. If we simplify the tariff, it will be easier for both humans and AI systems to deal with it. In fact, passengers should no longer have to worry about the tariff in the future.
WORLD: What could that actually look like?
Korbutt: You could stand at the airport and say to Mia in Polish: “I would like to eat a fish sandwich.” The system then recommends a destination, organizes the trip to the jetties, checks whether there is already a Germany ticket in the digital wallet and, if not, offers the appropriate ticket. If we also include a harbor tour or other offers, Mia could also arrange these directly. The passenger does not have to know a stop or select a fare zone himself.
WORLD: The HVV has already developed a digital sales solution with “hvv Any”, which has not been established in the long term. Why should things be different for Mia?
Korbutt: “hvv Any” wasn’t a technical failure. The system came onto the market in the year in which the Deutschlandticket was introduced. The market changed suddenly. Anyone who has a Germany ticket hardly needs an application in everyday life that records trips individually and bills them automatically. So the product was ready when the conditions changed fundamentally.
WORLD: Could Mia meet a similar fate?
Korbutt: Mia is not creating a new tariff or an additional sales world. It represents the existing business in a new way. Of course, it can happen that in the end it is not Mia, but another system that prevails. Maybe Google will develop a corresponding solution at some point. What matters to me is not that Mia necessarily wins. What matters is that one of these systems will come. We have to prepare our data, interfaces and processes for this.
WORLD: Could Google take over the ticket business from the transport associations?
Korbutt: Google has so far shown little interest in ticketing for German local transport. For a global corporation, this market is comparatively small. But perhaps that will change. The information data is largely available. We have to do the crucial work anyway: We have to prepare our systems so that artificial intelligence can access them and process the information sensibly. Whether the last surface is called Mia or something else is not the most important question.
WORLD: For a long time, autonomous vehicles were considered the great hope for Hamburg's local transport. Has artificial intelligence now overtaken them?
Korbutt: If you ask me what will have the greater impact, I will say clearly: artificial intelligence. Autonomous driving is an important component of transport, but it will not revolutionize public transport. In Hamburg we have one of the busiest train stations in Europe. When an S-Bahn arrives at the main station every three minutes in the morning, a lot of people get off there. A few autonomous minibuses cannot handle such crowds.
WORLD: What are autonomous shuttles needed for then?
Korbutt: For feeder traffic, neighborhoods without good rail connections, commuter connections or possibly rail replacement traffic. They can also be very helpful in surrounding areas and rural areas. A large public bus is often not economical there. A smaller autonomous vehicle could create a reliable offering at a reasonable cost.
WORLD: Autonomous vehicles were also an important component of the Hamburg Pact, according to which a mobility offer should be accessible to everyone within five minutes.
Korbutt: These vehicles are simply not available in sufficient numbers so far. We cannot use anything that the market does not yet technically deliver. Hamburg is ready to incorporate autonomous on-demand transport directly into the existing system. But we need a provider who can provide the technology reliably and on a larger scale.
WORLD: Are you still relying on MOIA and Volkswagen?
Korbutt: We have a historically developed and good partnership with MOIA, which we continue to maintain. But I generally view the technology as being manufacturer-neutral. Volkswagen is currently facing its own economic challenges. Other regions work with other providers and are also opening up to manufacturers from China. In the end, what matters is who can deliver a market-ready and reliable system. It is possible that a company that is not yet in the spotlight today will prevail.
WORLD: Why is autonomous driving still important for HVV?
Korbutt: Mainly because of the costs. Theoretically, 10,000 shuttles with drivers could be put on the road today. But that wouldn't be affordable. If autonomous vehicles make them cheaper to operate, we can drive more often and create offers where they would previously have been too expensive. This is its great benefit. It's less about a spectacular technical breakthrough than about more offerings and better timing.
WORLD: How does all of this change the HVV itself?
Korbutt: From my point of view, the HVV has only one raison d'être: It has to hold together the many ideas, political wishes and transport companies in such a way that the passenger ultimately has a unified experience. The HVV itself does not run any buses and does not have a subway. We are a comparatively small company with around 140 employees. For three and a half million people in the region, all of this is simply the HVV. Many people don't even differentiate between HVV, Hochbahn or other transport companies. And to be honest, there's little point in constantly trying to explain to them why the structures are so complicated.
WORLD: Does that mean the HVV has to become more powerful?
Korbutt: Its function as a clamp needs to become stronger. Smart people everywhere are working on new ideas, apps, artificial intelligence or autonomous driving. But it's no use if we build 17 different solutions next to each other.
