Just over a week before the second round of elections, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (PT) and Flávio Bolsonaro (PL) presented different paths for adjusting public accounts in hearings on TV Globo this Thursday (15) and Friday (16), respectively. The president bet on economic growth as a way to make the adjustment and cited measures to contain debt, such as Desenrola, while the senator promised spending cuts and the sale of Union properties to increase revenue. Both advocated preserving the poorest of the adjustment's effects and the end of the 6x1 scale.
The economy had more space in the PT member's interview, with topics such as debt and Bolsa Família, while Flávio had less space for economic issues and highlighted issues linked to the Bolsonaro family.
The senator responded about his relationship with former banker Daniel Vorcaro, the January 8 coup attempt, which led to the arrest of former president Jair Bolsonaro, and the possibility of appointing family members to positions in a possible government.
See what Lula said
Interest and public debt
Lula rejected the thesis of Gabriel Galípolo, president of the Central Bank, that the model of growth through consumption has exhausted itself. For the PT member, fiscal adjustment comes from growth.
He said he is worried about the debt, but did not signal a change in direction. He also defended debt for investment in productive assets and promised that Brazil will be among the eight largest economies next year.
6x1 scale
Lula praised the end of the 6x1 scale. "I'm sure the approval of the 6 to 1 scale is a wonderful thing for people." He also said that he intends to include free transport on the weekend in the government program, as people will have two days of rest.
Bolsa Família
Lula stated that he did not know that the benefit had not been readjusted during his term and described a scolding of ministers. He stated that there was fiscal space for adjustment and defended the 2027 Budget with a primary surplus of 0.1% of GDP, compared to the 2.8% deficit that he said he inherited from the Jair Bolsonaro government.
Family debt
Lula cited the three editions of Desenrola and a provisional measure in the Chamber that foresees an auction in which the Union would buy debts older than two years and up to R$4,000. Lula expects discounts of 90% to 95% and mentioned a stock of R$150 million.
The president mentioned the amnesty of R$12.7 billion in active debt of MEIs (individual microentrepreneurs). He also mentioned a guarantee of R$5,000 for those who pay off their debts and said that none of this affects the fiscal space.
Electricity bill
He blamed the privatization of Eletrobras "in exchange for bananas" and said that this was the cause for the rise in tariffs. He cited the project to attract R$500 billion in data centers and the opening of the free energy market to all consumers.
Rejection of the government
Lula began the hearing by commenting on his rejection of the government and was self-critical, taking full responsibility for not being able to communicate what he did in this term. He attributed the frustration to the comparison with the end of the second term, in 2010, and what he classified as a dismantling inherited from the Jair Bolsonaro government.
Governance and Congress
The president denied that the broad front that helped him in the 2022 elections had failed and responded about the difficulty he will have, if elected, in governing with an opposition majority in the National Congress. He said that he approved 99% of what he sent to Congress, including tax reform, and that all parties, except the PL, had ministries. Regarding the absence of these parties in the campaign, he said he never asked for electoral support from government allies.
United States and Trump
Lula described the relationship with Trump as the most civilized that the American had with presidents of other nations. He cited three conversations and said that commercial negotiations are ongoing. The president stated that, although Brazil lost 9% in its trade relationship with the United States, it grew 20% with China, 15% with Indonesia, 16% with Germany, 13% with Vietnam and 10.5% on average with 50 other countries.
Lula also threatened to use the Reciprocity Law, but said he preferred to negotiate.
PCC and Red Command as terrorist organizations
The president maintained his position against the American designation of criminal factions as terrorist organizations. The president argued that the factions only want money and do not fit into the concept of state terrorism, as the United States defends. He said that, for Brazilian communities, the factions are terrorists, and cited the cooperation proposal given to Trump.
Public safety and cooking gas
The president said that the priority is to approve the Security PEC and then create the Ministry of Public Security. He promised to finance 138 maximum security prisons to cut off the control of crime within the prisons and spoke of freeing the territories from the interference of factions in the sale of gas and Bolsa Família.
STF and Master case
Lula said he did not know how to assess whether the crisis at the Federal Supreme Court affected his performance in the first round and attributed the interest to the extreme right in revoking the mandate of minister Alexandre de Moraes due to the arrest of Jair Bolsonaro. He cited ministers Dias Toffoli, André Mendonça and Kassio Nunes Marques as also implicated in the case.
Lula defended a reform of the Judiciary with selection criteria, mandate for ministers and impediment for those who are partners in a firm that advocates in the STF itself.
Meeting with Vorcaro on the Plateau
Lula compared the meeting to visits from other bankers in crisis, such as Silvio Santos in the case of PanAmericano and Digimais, a bank linked to the Universal Church, owned by Bishop Edir Macedo. The president said that Vorcaro complained of political persecution and named names.
Ricardo Lewandowski and contract with Vorcaro
Lula praised the former Minister of Justice and said he did not know where he worked before his appointment to the ministry. The PT member said that it is not up to the president to monitor the lives of his assistants, but admitted that many things need to change. He defended a quarantine between public agents.
Criminal majority
Lula said he was in favor of reducing the age of criminal responsibility from 18 to 16 for heinous crimes, a position that the PT has historically never defended. He highlighted that the topic should not be included in the Security PEC and that it needs to be discussed later.
See what Flávio Bolsonaro said
Tax adjustment
Flávio said that the biggest fiscal adjustment Brazil can make is to remove Lula from power. He said again that he will not save money on the minimum wage and pensions, stating that he will reduce expenses by cutting ministries and fighting corruption.
He admitted that these measures alone do not achieve the savings of more than R$200 billion proposed by his campaign.
He mentioned that the Union has around 30 thousand properties (valued at R$1.7 trillion), proposing to place them in a management/securitization fund to obtain up to R$200 billion in new revenue. He defended extending the fiscal effort to the Judiciary and Legislative powers, estimating a cut of up to R$24 billion per year in compensation funds and overheads for the three powers.
He rejected privatizations of strategic state-owned companies such as Banco do Brasil, Caixa Econômica and Petrobras.
6x1 scale
Flávio criticized the proposal to end the 6x1 scale throughout the campaign, went back and voted in favor of the PEC (proposed amendment to the Constitution) on Wednesday (15). When asked about the change of position, he said that he was always in favor of more freedom for workers, including creating their own working hours.
He added that he went back after listening to the population and seeing that the majority of workers were in favor of ending the scale. He also stated that, if elected, he will not work to resume the 6x1 scale (six days of work with one day off).
Interest
He criticized the current level of the basic interest rate (Selic), saying that it is 7 percentage points above 2022 projections and that this costs close to R$1 trillion more in interest.
Presidential term
Flávio once again said that he wants to work to end presidential re-election in Brazil. He also stated that it will be up to the legislative process to define whether there will be a change in the length of the mandate.
He also promised that, if elected, he will give up the electoral contest at the end of his term if the end of re-election is not implemented in the country. "I just need a mandate," he said.
STF and Master case
Flávio stated that it is necessary to defend the STF institution and not just ministers, citing Alexandre de Moraes and his relations with former banker Daniel Vorcaro. He also accused the minister of working for Lula's re-election and practicing political persecution in his decisions.
Asked about the relationship between Kassio Nunes Marques, minister appointed by Jair Bolsonaro, with Vorcaro, he said that no minister should be above the law.
Film about Jair Bolsonaro
When asked about the request for resources for the Dark Horse film about his father to Vorcaro, he once again defended that the contact was a private request that had nothing to do with his role as a senator.
He avoided reporting on the path of resources and compared the transfer with other Vorcaro sponsorships, citing Luciano Huck's program on Globo.
Bolsonaro family positions
Flávio was asked about the possibility of offering positions in a possible mandate to members of the Bolsonaro family. He said his father never showed any desire to work in government and that appointing him to a position is off the radar.
He also stated that his brother, Eduardo Bolsonaro, would not be chancellor of his government. He added that his brother is a politically persecuted person, citing minister Alexandre de Moraes again.
January 8
Flávio said that his father was convicted in a farce, and called the trial that condemned the former president political persecution.
"Never want to be judged by your enemies", he said, once again quoting minister Alexandre de Moraes.
PCC and CV as terrorist organizations
Flávio was not questioned about the US's characterization of Brazilian factions as terrorist organizations and did not mention the American decision. He said, however, that if elected, he will treat heads of the PCC and CV as narco-terrorists.
He also promised to use the Armed Forces to protect borders, combat trafficking in these regions and "declare war on narcoterrorism."
Access to weapons
Flávio criticized the current disarmament statute and said that it is a "crazy thesis" to say that more access to weapons generates more violence. He also praised measures taken by his father's government that led to an increase in the issuance of gun possession records.
Health
In the health sphere, he spoke about his intention to appoint Claudio Lottenberg to the Ministry of Health. He praised the ophthalmologist and said that he would be able to take the good practices of Einstein Hospital Israelista, the institution he presided over, to the SUS (Unified Health System).
For SUS, he promised to create a single electronic medical record to bring together data from the public and private spheres.
