An exciting constellation that arose for Sandra Maischberger through the invitations of her guests. With Klaus Wowereit (SPD) and Ole von Beust (CDU), the ARD talker invited two former, long-time mayors, both of whom had already gained experience in working with political fringe many years ago.
Von Beust (CDU) was Hamburg's first mayor for nine years. He formed a government with the FDP and the Constitutional Offensive Party, or PRO for short, the party of the right-wing populist Ronald Schill. Although he did that, he achieved a sensational 47.2 percent in his re-election, which meant an absolute majority for the CDU. He ran for a third term with a black-green coalition and resigned two years later.
Wowereit (SPD) was Governing Mayor of Berlin for thirteen years. In 2001 he formed a coalition with the Greens and the PDS, the SED successor party, now The Left. That didn't do him any good. Despite his great popularity, Wowereit's SPD lost support, but he still received a third term in office, in which he entered with the CDU as a partner. Before it ended, Wowereit resigned.
Of course, both have mixed feelings about the situations that have arisen for their parties from the elections in Saxony-Anhalt and Berlin. In contrast to the former SPD mayors Michael Müller (2014-2021) and Walter Momper (1989-1991), Wowereit did not sign a public letter to the party leadership explicitly warning against a coalition with the Left. He says: "I was also asked, but I said no. Because I don't think it's good that pensioners from the SPD are now giving wise advice via public letters. I can also do that behind the scenes, by telephone, for example."
“There was the same discussion beforehand”
He leaves it open whether he really did that. Rather, Wowereit remembers how he entered into coalition negotiations with the PDS in 2001. “There was the same discussion beforehand.” Back then it was about the legacy of the GDR, today it was about anti-Semitism, clan connections and expropriations. You have to clearly define such important topics before you start negotiating on substantive issues, says Wowereit. "It is completely clear to me that an absolute commitment to Israel is required. Anti-Semitism must be fought in Berlin," he demands. "And that has to be ensured. Otherwise I don't think the SPD would be willing to cooperate on this."
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The situation of the CDU in Saxony-Anhalt is even more dramatic, making itself the supposed stirrup holder of the AfD. Tobias Rausch has just been elected as the new President of the State Parliament. Obviously, but no one knows for sure, with votes from the CDU. Ole von Beust says: “The assumption is obvious that the votes came from the CDU, tragically.” Then he adds: "We talk about the AfD like a UFO. We are the good guys, and something really terrible is happening. The truth is that the AfD is constantly on the rise. And you shouldn't pretend that there are no causes that were created by our own incompetence." He gets a lot of applause for this and says: "The crucial question is: What do we have to do to stop this crap from happening again. That is much more important than the outrage about who voted for whom.
Wowereit is surprised: "Given the result that the AfD had in Saxony-Anhalt, it would be strange if they didn't nominate the state parliament president. The fact that he was elected is not surprising to me." Shortly before Christmas, Ulrich Siegmund wants to stand for election as Prime Minister. Wowereit calculates: “We now know that the AfD candidate in the prime ministerial election may not need a coalition at all, but will get through as a minority government because he is elected as prime minister.” So similar to Tobias Rausch becoming President of the State Parliament with votes from other parties.
Maischberger asks. Chancellor Friedrich Merz had issued a clear ban on electing an AfD candidate for his party in Saxony-Anhalt. Ole von Beust says: "But what should Merz do now? He doesn't even know which four they were. He can't take them to heart and certainly can't throw them out of the party. It's just speculation. It wasn't the CDU that co-elected this state parliament president, but obviously four who we don't know who they were."
“I think it’s terrible, sometimes it’s sickening.”
Von Beust talks himself into a rage. “We are pushing the AfD into a martyr role when we problematize certain things that we actually take for granted.” By this he means parliamentary processes, such as the election of committee chairmen. "I find them terrible, sometimes infuriating. But that doesn't change the fact that they were elected," thunders Ole von Beust. “And when the impression of unfairness and being pushed into a corner arises, then people say: Oh, look – they enrich themselves, they do what they want, and they leave out those who got so many votes.”
Maischberger wants to know: Based on his experiences, would Ole von Beust be in favor of working with the AfD? "No," he answers, "I give a clear no. Schill was a right-winger, they are right-wing radicals, that's a difference."
Now Maischberger turns to the federal coalition and asks: What does this do to the psychology of this government? It's astonishing that a Social Democrat in Wowereit was pushing the pace of reform that evening. He said: "We had the reform autumn, the reform spring, the reform winter, summer and what not. I don't know what else. You finally have to get your act together and move things forward. Otherwise elections like the one in Saxony-Anhalt would "occur much more often."
Ole von Beust reminds him that it is about agreements that were made together. “Now,” he says, “the SPD is getting cold feet for understandable reasons and doesn’t want any more, and the CDU is saying: Now more than ever, then we have to do more.” Von Beust also addresses another topic that is very unpleasant for politicians: “Such reforms, which mean cuts for people, are only accepted if those who want these reforms themselves say: We are setting a good example.” Again he gets a lot of applause. “I can’t preach water and drink wine,” says von Beust. "I have to start with myself when I ask others to do it. Otherwise it will be difficult."
He openly asks whether a billion-euro extension to the Chancellery is really necessary in times of austerity. And Maischberger recalls the renovation of Bellevue Palace, the seat of the Federal President, which also cost around one billion euros and says: “The fence alone costs 24 million.” Wowereit shakes his head: "Not all fences are the same. It's also about safety precautions. But we can now talk smart here, we don't have to implement it anymore."
